Podcast

Learn from Fast Growing 7-8 Figure Online Retailers and eCommerce Experts

EPISODE 336 47 mins

Conversion Research: The Goldmine for Increasing eCommerce Revenue



About the guests

Rich Page

Kunle Campbell

Rich Page has over 15 years of experience with web analytics, A/B testing, and conversion rate optimization (CRO). He's written two popular books about CRO and has optimized sales, leads, and conversion rates for 100’s of websites, including Disney and Vodafone.



On today’s episode, Kunle is joined by Rich Page, CEO & Founder of Rich Page: Website Organizer, a company that helps websites increase conversion rates and sales.

Websites have many benefits including providing your customers with the best user experience (UX). With satisfied customers, you get guaranteed converts. A pretty website isn’t enough to drive in traffic. What you need is a website with a friendly user experience and CRO to bring in loads of traffic, and with loads of traffic, you get loads of revenue.

In this episode, Kunle and Rich talk about how important shopping carts are in getting data about product performances. You will get to hear about how a 20 question survey isn’t the best idea for website feedback. This is a great episode for business owners looking to increase revenue and traffic on their websites.

Here is a summary of some of the noteworthy points made:

  • Rich Page greets each client with a meticulous eye to help their websites increase traffic and generate sales.
  • One of the biggest challenges facing eCommerce now is because of these giants out there that are potentially taking away a lot of your customer base.
  • User experience is one of the most critical parts. If you’re not improving the user experience of your website and your users, then they’re not going to convert.
  • Conversion rate optimization isn’t just the website. It’s trying to optimize your traffic sources that go to the website

Covered Topics:

In today’s interview, Kunle and Rich Page discuss:

  • Rich’s Backstory
  • SaaS eCommerce Platforms
  • Rich on Being a CRO Expert
  • Hacks for Effective Website Traffic
  • Inside The Minds of Your Website Shoppers
  • Tapping Into Other Data Points
  • A/B Split Testing and Other Methodologies

Timestamps:

  • 10:30- Rich’s Backstory:
    • His decade-plus experience
    • How eCommerce changed and the new macro trends
  • 13:12 – SaaS eCommerce Platforms:
    • The challenges of Shopify
    • Common mistakes that eCommerce businesses make in the platforms
    • What is HIPPO?
    • Optimizing by separating oneself from the operations
  • 16:40 – Rich on Being a CRO Expert:
    • The CRO Approach or Improving UX
    • User experience is important in any website
    • Knowing what customers liked and didn’t like
    • “If you do launch the whole thing at once, you’re not going to know what it was that had an impact on your conversion rates and revenue.”
  • 21:51- Hacks for Effective Website Traffic
    • Gauging the results of Shopify and plowing through iterations
    • Using Hotjar and Contentsquare to find rage clicks
    • What is a rage click?
  • 28:18 – Inside The Minds of Your Website Shoppers
    • “Traffic isn’t equal”
    • Understanding the client’s traffic sources
    • Having a great visual website isn’t enough for a purchase
  • 32:07 – Tapping Into Other Data Points
    • Qualitative metrics are important
    • Customer’s shopping carts can reveal shopping performance
    • Surveys are old fashioned and not engaging
    • Asking the right questions
    • Incentivizing Surveys for better responses
  • 40:33 – A/B Split Testing and Other Methodologies
    • “A/B testing is CRO. They’re the same thing but they’re not.”
    • Issues with A/B testing
    • Getting high impact results with A/B testing

Takeaways:

  • Improve your sales by Improving the User Experience of your Website
  • It’s all about timing when it comes to feedback surveys on your website.

Links & Resources:

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Transcript

Welcome, Rich, to the 2X eCommerce podcast. I feel like I’ve known you forever because of the amount of impact you have on LinkedIn and a few other groups we’ve crossed paths on. If you could take the next minute or two to introduce yourself, it would be brilliant.

First of all, thanks for having me on. I’ve seen your name and your podcast around for so long now. It’s a privilege to be on your podcast. To introduce myself, my name is Rich Page. I’m the CEO and founder of my own consulting business, Rich Page: Website Optimizer. I’ve been doing CRO now for over fifteen years. I started off doing web analytics then moved into CRO, and then I ended up doing a website usability thesis for my Master’s.

I’ve worked for Disney Online in analytics, and then I quickly started to realize that it’s not just the insights that you’ve got from doing analytics but you need to then help understand what you can improve on the website. I didn’t want to be a reporting monkey that just gave reports to someone else and then hope that they would do it. I want to say, “I’ve noticed that there’s a problem with the homepage or checkout,” or something. That’s why I then started to realize, “The CRO thing is getting big.”

I read an amazing book by Bryan Eisenberg called Call to Action. I thought, “What you can do with CRO is amazing,” so I started to get into that. I didn’t think that one day I would end up writing a book on conversion optimization, which is Website Optimization: An Hour a Day. I specialize in conversion research for conversion optimization for eCommerce and SaaS businesses.

Fifteen years is a long time. I like to ask this question to people with this length of career, which is how has eCommerce, from your first-party perspective, changed over the years when you started? What would have been the macro trends you’ve seen in the last decade or more?

One of the biggest things is the bar that you have to hit in terms of user experience. Conversion optimization best practices are now so high that if you don’t do that, one of your competitors will be doing it better than you. You will be losing a considerable amount of your traffic and therefore, sales to those businesses that are investing in CRO and UX more than you are.

Amazon has hugely changed things as well. That’s probably the single biggest impact I think of in terms of eCommerce. One thing, in particular, free shipping and free returns. Even when they started to do it, they didn’t always give you free returns. I remember, if you bought certain things you couldn’t return easily, you had to give them reasons. Now, it doesn’t matter what you buy, you just return it. That has a big impact on smaller businesses that are indirectly competing with them.

I find that if you don’t offer free shipping and free returns and your products are also similar to Amazon, they are your competitor and it’s hard to beat that. That is one of the biggest challenges facing eCommerce now because of these giants out there that are potentially taking away a lot of your customer base. In particular, Amazon Prime.

That convenience and customer-centricity, there’s an ecological impact to all of this because return wastage is at an all-time high. It’s addictive. If you know that that purchase is guaranteed and nothing can go wrong for Amazon at the moment, what I do is print out the Royal Mail. We have a local Royal Mail post office in the corp. Scan it on the phone and then you drop it. It’s so easy. It’s a salient point. I’ve been around for maybe a decade or so. My own takeaway is that the changing of God in mid-tier eCommerce from Magento to Shopify Plus and these other SaaS eCommerce platforms have made agility in getting into the business fast.

Shopify has been great for that. Shopify is everywhere now. One of the challenges of that though is that unless you’re on the pro version, you can’t even customize the checkout properly. You’re stuck with what Shopify thinks you need to do. One of the frustrations I see on that is that it doesn’t tell you the shipping costs until you’re on the billing page.

A common mistake that eCommerce businesses make is that they don’t declare what the shipping costs are upfront. If you’re competing with Amazon, you’re going to get to the checkout and you’re like, “I still don’t know how much it’s going to cost to get this to me.” It’s another reason why Amazon is winning that. If you’re using Shopify basic account and you don’t know these mistakes you could be making, then you potentially losing a lot of people from shopping cart abandonment.

That is another important point. The Shopify Plus merchants do not do much customizations on their checkout, which is costing them a lot from a conversion standpoint.

Many eCommerce businesses are led by a founder or something that may not know anything about CRO or UX and maybe wants to do it the way they want to do it. A term I always like to say is HIPPO, highest-paid person’s opinion. They can often do things that are not the best thing to do for user experience and conversion optimization. They don’t know that they’re even making these mistakes.

Maybe they have an online marketing person that disagrees with them or if they’re lucky, they have enough web analysts, then they may disagree with them. Ultimately, it’s their business and they don’t understand it should be more about customer-centricity, what they want, what works for them, what the problems they’re having. This is why this commercial research is a problem and such a big thing.

You often find that founders have this problem. They’re either emotional about their companies or their business or their brand and they can’t detach their personalities from it. It’s an ego thing. You’d never be able to grow into a systematized organization if you don’t put in the experts and separate yourself from the operation. It’s another topic for optimization.

Let’s focus on CRO. You’re a CRO expert. I’ve often wondered when to consider conversion rate optimization versus say, rethinking user experience or even redesigning a website, changing the experience in the website. Do you want to take us through these options available to readers, particularly eCommerce directors thinking, “Should I go a CRO approach or should I improve UX?” What is the best approach from your point of view?

In terms of my perspective about CRO, to me, user experience is one of the most critical parts of it because ultimately, if you’re not improving the user experience of your website and your users, then they’re not going to convert. They go hand in hand. Some user experience, people might say CRO is different but to me, they overlap significantly. You can’t do CRO without doing user experience.

For example, one of the things I see is that bigger eCommerce brands want to get into personalization but if you do personalization on a website that doesn’t have a good user experience, people can’t navigate your website properly, the forms are hard to fill in, and the filters are not good. Then it doesn’t matter if you personalize it.

I like to use the analogy of lipstick on a pig. The personalization is the lipstick and the website is the pig. It’s still a pig. That’s why it’s important to get this user experience right. There are certainly best practices you can do with the user experience. If you don’t know what those exact user’s issues are with your websites to try to convert them better, user experience people often will claim that they know what is best for the users.

A/B testing is CRO. They're the same thing but they're not. Click to Tweet

Unless you’re a UX researcher and you do a good job of understanding your visitors, you won’t get to understand the types of issues that they’re having with your website. A lot of businesses make the mistake of just redesigning their website using UX best practices. They do generally a good job of that but they don’t understand what the main issues were on the website currently. They may understand the personas of the users but they won’t know, “What are the main issues that are happening with the website right now?”

For example, when I did a customer survey for one of my clients, I found that even though the user expense was good, they didn’t often understand which size to buy. They needed more help understanding which size to buy depending on which product it is. I heard that a lot from this customer survey. After that, I then use conversion optimization best practices to improve the website to convert more of those people on top of the existing UX best practices.

If you’ve got a website that isn’t particularly good user experience, when I see that, I’ll often tell the client or the prospect, “You need some design before we get into the CRO aspect of this. If your website doesn’t look professional, if it doesn’t look modern, if there are a lot of things that are not easy to use, if you start doing CRO on top of that to improve certain things, it’s still not going to have as big an impact. Because you don’t have a good user experience in the first place.

In terms of the redesign, one of the best things you can do is to do more of an iterative improvement rather than just throwing out a website saying, “That didn’t work,” or, “Maybe the founder doesn’t like it anymore,” without realizing what does work and what doesn’t work. That’s why it’s important to do this conversion research to find out user testing, visitor surveys, and customer surveys, in particular, to find out what those issues, hesitations, and doubts were. Also, finding out what they did like because you don’t want to get rid of the stuff that they did like and did work.

Once you understand that, you can then build that into the UX prototypes knowing, “We know what the problems were. Let’s do this prototyping and get UX in to do the design, and then get more feedback on it before you launch it.” Potentially, depending on how much of a redesign you do, even launch a new product page, and then launch a homepage.

Don’t launch the whole thing at once because if you do launch the whole thing at once, you’re not going to know what it was that had an impact on your conversion rates and revenue. For example, you may take one step forward but two steps back. You may have an amazing product page but your filters may be terrible now and worse than before so you won’t get to find products easily. Or maybe your category pages are not engaging anymore.

You make an iteration on the filtering system on the catalog page, for instance, or your collection pages as referred to in Shopify. How long do you wait to gauge the results to say, “We’ve made progress,” or, “It’s retrogressive. Let’s learn. We’ve made learning.” Is it data? Is it time? How do you plow through those iterations?

It is going to depend on how much traffic you have and how many conversions you’ve got. If you’ve got a lot of traffic, you can get that data fast. You need at least a week to see the impact. You need to take into account the variation by the day of the week, but most eCommerce websites don’t have the luxury of that much traffic. It will be depending on launching those iterative changes but also trying to combine a few because if you’re only able to launch one at a time, then it’s going to slow down your ability to improve your website quite quickly.

If you know, for example, that there are things hidden on your website that are broken, you would fix those, so you don’t even need to do any iterations on that. For example, if you do commercial research and you find out that in your forms, one of the error messages isn’t particularly clear. Or on mobile, your smaller devices like the iPhone SE 2019 or the iPhone 5, which 5% of people can often be using on your website. If you don’t understand those issues that they’re having on there, then it’s going to break the experience for them. If you discover those issues, fix those. That is different than a redesign process.

Depending on how good the user experience of your website is in the first place, I would always do those fixes first, depending on how many you have. It’s one of the great things you can do with using visitor recordings. You can watch what people do on your websites using tools like Hotjar. You can use things like looking for rage clicks. It’s a newer feature of these tools.

A rage click is defined as when someone isn’t clicking crazily on one thing, either because it’s not working or they don’t understand it. What’s great about tools like Hotjar and things like Contentsquare is that you can run a search to find these people who are doing these rage clicks. You can quickly figure out if something’s broken because your QA team may not have spotted it being broken.

Let the machine help you figure that out. Going back to your definition of CRO, would you say that websites need to work essentially?

Yes.

They don’t need to be pigs. They need to work well using user testing principles, which is a whole category in itself, a whole discipline in itself. CROs objective, essentially, in order to get CRO started, is getting into the minds of segments of shoppers, of users of your website in order to understand their frustrations, what makes them happy, what makes them tick. Then take that learning towards fixing them.

Exactly.

Getting into the minds of these users, what techniques do you go for? Do you go for qualitative data? Do you go for quantitative data? How do you prioritize on traffic? Because all traffic isn’t equal. Kim Kardashian said she likes the phone cases that we sell, and then my website blew. That traffic would be different from a normal, boring, wet Monday. How would you get into the mind of these users or shoppers of your website?

One of the things that I always ask clients when I’m beginning a project with them is looking into what their top traffic sources are and understanding what they may have seen in Facebook ads and then on selling, whether even arriving on your website. I see a lot of eCommerce businesses are heavily reliant on Facebook ads. If their Facebook ads aren’t good, they don’t use unique value proposition in the titles and they use average static or maybe a few animated GIFs in there. When they get to the website, it’s often not the best start anyway.

To me, conversion rate optimization isn’t just the website. It’s trying to optimize your traffic sources that go to the website. Ultimately, you could have the world’s best website but if your traffic source is particularly the ones that you’re in control of like Facebook ads and Google Ads which are not optimized to continue the message that comes from those, then they’re going to arrive on your website. They’re already not going to be primed as much as they could be in order to purchase.

Facebook ads work so well often for driving high quality if you do it well. I have clients that 70% of whose traffic is Facebook ads. If you don’t optimize that, in particular, and make that message continuation work well between them, then that’s why it’s important to focus on that segment of traffic that you were talking about. You want to get the repeat visitors purchasing, as well as the first-time visitors purchasing.

When they get to your website and they don’t like what they see and they’re not engaged when they move through your website, if there’s information that’s missing that they need to know in order for them to make a purchase decision, they’re not going to purchase anyway. The people that do purchase, if you don’t treat them as a segment to get them to come back knowing what the typical purchase lifecycle is, what types of products they would buy, in which order. Setting up email automation, setting up retargeting in order to get that funnel of customers back to increase the revenue from that source, you’re missing that, too. It’s the pre-traffic that’s coming, first-time visitors, and then your returning visitors that, to me, are the biggest.

You’ve mentioned traffic sources, which is definitely motivational. If there was a mention in the press, it’d be different from Google or Facebook. You discussed quantitative sources earlier. In terms of getting into the mind, understanding what is going on in their head, knowing where they’re coming from provides excellent context. Are there any other data points CRO practitioners can tap into towards getting more customer or shopper insights?

There’s definitely the whole qualitative metrics, which are important in the first place to understand the performance of website. That’s where Google Analytics comes in, in association with things like Shopify metrics to figure out what those top landing pages are, what’s your shopping cart abandonment rate, what’s your average order value. Figuring out those for the CRO best practices, there are certain reports that you need to be focusing on.

For example, you need to be looking at the conversion rates coming from your top landing pages. You need to be looking at the conversion rate from your main sources of traffic and your bounce rate for those. Because once you know those, you can then go about using a target to try and beat those. Not necessarily comparing to articles you may have read out there like, “We need to have a 2% conversion rate.” Even in the same industry, it can vary depending on who your user is, what your exact product is.

The personalization is the lipstick and the website is the pig. Click to Tweet

It’s trying to beat what your current metrics are showing. Google Analytics is important for that. Also, figuring out where those big drop-off points are. Looking at their shopping cart, looking at the abandonment metrics in there, which are important to look at. Even using some of the more advanced eCommerce reports that are in Google Analytics that tell you what the shopping performance is for each of your products. Looking at the buy-to-detail rate of particular production might find that one of your bestselling products doesn’t convert well.

Once you know that, you can think, “This product isn’t converting as well as the other ones.” You can think, “Maybe there’s something on this page that is not clear.” That’s what’s great about doing the qualitative side of things. Once you’ve figured out, “These are the issues from the quantitative from Google Analytics,” you can then direct the questions or potential issues in your visitor surveys, your customer surveys, and your user testing. Which is the conversion research, the real qualitative feedback you get, which tells you why they are doing what they’re doing as opposed to the what, which to me is much more important than being able to know why they’re doing it. If you’re a good web analyst, you’re going to find out what they’re doing, but you need to take that to the next level and discover why they’re doing it.

The what is the quantitative you’re looking at from a data analysis standpoint. You’re looking at landing pages, you’re looking at conversion numbers. You’re a data analyst looking through all the macro-level data. Then for qualitative, from what you said, the visitor survey, customer survey, and user testing, you’re asking for firsthand experience data, experience information from customers.

Visitor surveys are questions to them when they’re visiting your site, customer surveys are to your existing customers, and then user testing is getting a group of testers that match the demographics of your website to test. You ask them questions and then they go through the entire experience and give you feedback. This is like user feedback.

It’s a goldmine for the amount of insights and feedback that you get from it, but you have to know what questions to ask. This is what I see out there, people have a misconception even with surveys. I’m sure you’ve seen these surveys that pop up and annoy you like, “Would you like to give your feedback?” Then you click it and then there are twenty questions. It takes way too long. Most of them are about a product. They’re quite old-fashioned and they’re not particularly engaging.

The type of feedback you get in it is more to help you understand the current performance of your website, even more towards the qualitative side, the whole numbers, how often would you rate this to someone else, and those types of things, which are good but it doesn’t tell you why. You’re not recommending it to others.

Which brings me to my next question, how do you ask the right question?

Over the years, I’ve figured out what works best and what doesn’t. The visitor survey, you want to pop up this survey on your website not immediately. Same with these opt-in pop-ups, don’t do them as soon as visitors arrive. They will annoy your visitor. I’ve seen it hundreds of times in user tests. Same thing with these surveys, you need to wait until they’ve been on your product page for a few minutes and then pop it up because they won’t be able to give you good insights. It’s not just the questions. It’s also the timing of it.

In terms of questions, visitor surveys are always good to ask fewer questions because you know they probably don’t have a lot of time. The other thing is to incentivize it. What I found is that if you don’t incentivize it in the right way, you won’t get many responses. If you do get responses, they won’t be high quality. If you simply say, “You can win a $100 gift certificate for giving your feedback,” you will get people saying rubbish, like, “This is great, yes,” or, “No,” or, “Not helpful,” because they want to win the gift certificate.

I even see in responses, you could ask, “What would make you increase your purchasing?” Some people will leave and say, “If I win this gift certificate.” The way you get around that is you need to ask them, “We will give this gift certificate away to the person who gives the best and most useful feedback.” It works so well. It increases the quality of the feedback that you’re getting, which then gives you a better website, and proven ideas, which then increases your conversion rates.

In terms of the questions, one of the most important ones is going to be to ask, “Do you have any doubts or hesitations at the moment about this website or products?” That’s where you can understand, “I’m not quite sure about this,” or, “I can’t understand the shipping pricing,” or, “I’m missing this particular information,” or, “I can’t find something.” Trying to understand those pain points because once you know those pain points, you can address those pain points to make sure other businesses don’t have those pain points.

This is exactly how optimizing SaaS products work. There’s always that feedback loop, which gives them continuous improvements, that ability to continuously improve, which is what customers want, both new and existing customers. This would take us to A/B split testing. You often see or mention why A/B testing doesn’t work well. With this methodology you’ve shared with us, you have the right questions to ask from your hypothesis. You built a hypothesis for A/B split testing. Why doesn’t A/B split testing work? What are testing methodologies can you apply based on all these insights you’ve gathered from customers?

One of the myths out there is that A/B testing is CRO. They’re the same thing but they’re not. You don’t need to do A/B testing in order to improve your website. The majority of websites don’t even have enough traffic to do A/B testing. Maybe you can on your homepage, but the majority of even my clients don’t have much traffic to be able to do A/B testing.

That’s one of the issues that I’m sure that people reading are going to agree with, “I wanted to do it but I didn’t have enough traffic so I presume I can’t do CRO,” but you can. This is where this conversion research side of things comes in. The other problem with A/B testing is that it’s all dependent on the ideas that you have in the first place. At the end of the day, A/B testing is just a tool. If you don’t put good ideas in it, you’re not going to get good results. In order to get those good ideas, you need to use conversion research. Using web analytics insights, you want to come to create better hypotheses that you’ve seen that are issues that you know if you improve those, it’s going to have a much better chance of increasing your conversion rates.

The other issue that you’re going to get with A/B testing is that it will tell you which version wins or doesn’t, but it doesn’t tell you why. You can’t ask visitors questions once they’ve seen a variation easily in this part of the A/B testing tool. Particularly if your A/B testing loses, you won’t know why it lost. If you’re not doing the customer surveys to understand what the issues are and you’re not addressing those with your A/B tests, you’re going to have a great chance that they’re going to lose. Even if they do win, you can try to figure out, “It’s because of X, Y, Z reason that we have a hypothesis or a hunch,” or, “We saw an idea from another website.” You don’t know why.

Those are the biggest challenges with A/B testing out there that generally lead to you not being able to do A/B testing because you don’t have enough traffic. Even if you do it, you won’t get good results maybe from your first couple of tests, then you’re like, “This doesn’t work. I’ll just go back to spending money on Facebook ads,” and all the other traffic sources that you’ve got. It’s going to increase your revenue but if you’re not increasing your conversion rate, therefore you’re not making those ads as profitable as well because you have to spend more money in order to acquire new visitors. When they get there, they don’t convert as well as they should.

That’s why A/B testing can work well but often, it doesn’t work as well as you would think it does. It’s not talked about enough if you asked me. I used to work for Adobe, working with the test and target tool back in 2012. The comments back then are like, “It’s all about A/B testing.” Over the years, I’ve learned to be less reliant on A/B testing to improve websites.

For example, you discover on a small device that your buttons are hidden by a filter pop-up or a live chat in the corner. If you’ve discovered that as an issue, you just need to launch it. You don’t need to A/B test that. If your filters are not good, you need to get it to a standard where they are usable and enough people are going to interact with those using UX and CRO best practices in order to get to the level it needs to be.

If you have the luxury of enough traffic on your category page or search results, do some A/B testing. The other potentially good way of doing A/B testing is if you’re using some influence-related tests for a headline that you don’t know the answer to because you’re getting a smaller sample size from visitor surveys, customer surveys, and user testing, you want to test it in front of a big sample size. Which is where A/B testing helps.

If you don’t know whether to do a question more scarcity-based or more fear-based, fear of missing out, and that work better than if you use a testimonial or a benefit-driven headline, then you don’t want to just rely on what ten people have said from user testing or 100 people from a visitor survey. That’s where you’ll get more results from doing high-impact A/B testing.

Rich, thank you so much for coming on the 2X eCommerce podcast show. For those of you who want to learn more about Rich Page, his website is Rich-Page.com, or google Rich Page. He has a book called Website Optimization: An Hour a Day. Rich, it’s been an absolute pleasure having you on the show.

It’s been a pleasure. Thanks. Bye.

About the host:

Kunle Campbell

An ecommerce advisor to ambitious, agile online retailers and funded ecommerce startups seeking exponentially sales growth through scalable customer acquisition, retention, conversion optimisation, product/market fit optimisation and customer referrals.

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