Podcast

Learn from Fast Growing 7-8 Figure Online Retailers and eCommerce Experts

EPISODE 335 45 mins

Digging Into Lifetime Value and Customer Acquisition Cost



About the guests

Paul Orlando

Kunle Campbell

Paul Orlando has led startup accelerators on three continents. He is an Adjunct Professor of Entrepreneurship at the University of Southern California and runs USC’s on-campus Incubator for businesses founded by students, alumni and faculty. Paul advises on building internal incubator programs.



In today’s episode, Kunle is joined by Paul Orlando, Founder of Startups Unplugged, a startup accelerator and incubator that helps companies generate more revenue and enables different communities to attract new businesses.

As a data-driven person, Paul Orlando strategizes according to data and numbers, and with that, he comes up with different approaches on how to get ideal closing customers. Paul learned the hard way that data is very important to measure growth in the business but that was not all.

In this episode, Kunle and Paul talk about Lifetime Value (LTV) and Customer Acquisition Costs (CAC). You will get to hear about the importance of knowing your business by looking into your lifetime value and customer acquisition cost. This is a great episode for entrepreneurs and founders who want to improve their growth metrics such as conversions, average order value, repeat customers, audience size, etc.

Here is a summary of some of the most important points made:

  • Go back to basics that would give you an understanding of your business (e.g. using spreadsheets and graphs)
  • Digging into the metrics is going to uncover a lot of value for your business.
  • CAC may be known upfront but LTV takes a while to emerge.
  • Look at the data, but there are times that you have to go out and see somebody in person and what they’re doing.

Covered Topics:

On today’s interview Kunle and Paul discuss:

  • Paul’s Background
  • Breaking Down CAC
  • Digging Deep into LTV
  • Retention Metrics
  • Turnkey and Methodologies
  • CAC to LTV Ratio
  • LTV Standard
  • Measuring Churn

Timestamps:

  • 05:28 – Paul’s Background
    • Old Start Up anecdote
  • 08:46 – Breaking Down CAC
    • Cost of bringing somebody in the door divided by the conversion rate.
    • Not just one CAC
    • Can be based the customer segments, on the channel
  • 15:07 – Digging Deep into LTV
    • Has few distinct components: the price of an item, costs directly associated with the item, and repeat purchases
    • On repeat purchase, the number of repeat purchases that people seem to do and the timing.
    • LTV takes a while to emerge and it can always be changing
  • 25:17 – Retention Metrics
    • Can’t be fully pictured early on and it depends on the situation
    • “Based on our business model, what should we be trying to move the needle on? What part of the conversion funnel? How important is improving retention to us?”
  • 28:42 – Turnkey and Methodologies
    • Default to most basic things like using a spreadsheet
    • Model it out the old-fashioned way for basic understanding
  • 30:56 – CAC to LTV Ratio
    • Often hear a rule of thumb: 3 to 1, or 4 to 1
    • LTV does not capture everything.
    • Timing is not captured in ratio.
  • 36:12 – LTV Standard
    • No real standard.
    • Reporting is done in whichever way is optimistic
    • Long term customer vs one-time individual customer
  • 39:42 – Measuring Churn
    • Different models of churn
    • How churn can be measured

Takeaways:

  • If you don’t separate price and costs, you might not know that there’s an opportunity for you to increase the price or you have some leeway to reduce cost.
  • Rather than giving a static number, model it out and show the inflows and outflows in spreadsheets and graphically.
  • Similar to CAC, if the LTV is a single number, that is a sign you haven’t dug deeply into what’s going on in your business just yet.

Links & Resources:

Facebook Group • Continue the Conversation

The eCommerce GrowthAccelerator Mastermind Facebook Group has just launched.
It is a community…

✔️ for founders and experts passionately involved in eCommerce
✔️ for the truly ambitious wanting to make an impact in the markets they serve
✔️ for those willing and open to help and share with other members

Here is where to apply to join the Facebook group
>>http://bit.ly/ecommercefb<<

———–

SPONSORS:

This episode is brought to you by:

This episode is brought to you by Klaviyo – a growth marketing platform that powers over 25,000 online businesses.
Direct-to-Consumer brands like ColourPop, Huckberry, and Custom Ink rely on Klaviyo.

Klaviyo helps you own customer experience and  grow high-value customer relationships right from a shopper’s first impression through to each subsequent purchase, Klaviyo understands every single customer interaction,  and empowers brands to create more personalized marketing moments.

Find out more on klaviyo.com/2x.

This episode is brought to you by Rewind – the #1 Backup and Recovery App for Shopify and BigCommerce stores that powers over 80,000 online businesses.
Direct-to-Consumer brands like Gymshark and MVMT Watches rely on Rewind.

Cloud based ecommerce platforms like Shopify and BigCommerce do not have automatic backup features. Rewind protects your store against human error, misbehaving apps, or collaborators gone bad with Automatic backups!

For a free 30-day trial, Go to Rewind Backups,
reach out to the Rewind team via chat or email and mention ‘2x ecommerce’

This episode is brought to you by Gorgias, the leading helpdesk for Shopify, Magento and BigCommerce merchants.

Gorgias combines all your communication channels including email, SMS, social media, livechat, and phone, into one platform.

This saves your team hours per day & makes managing customer orders a breeze. It also integrates seamlessly with your existing tech stack, so you can access customer information and even edit, return, refund or create an order, right from your helpdesk.

Go to Gorgias.com and mention 2x ecommerce podcast for two months free.

Transcript

In this episode, we’re going to learn about the building blocks for growing your eCommerce business, which is down to your Customer Acquisition Cost, your Lifetime value, and your payback period.

The 2X eCommerce podcast is dedicated to digital commerce insights for retail and eCommerce. In this podcast, we interview a commerce expert, a founder of a direct consumer native brand, or a representative from a best-in-class commerce SaaS product. They have a tight remit and their remit is to give you ideas to test right away in your brand so that you improve commerce growth metrics such as conversions, average order value, repeat customers, and your audience size. Ultimately, your gross merchant value or sales. We’re here to help you sell more sustainably.

I’m super excited because I’m joined by Paul Orlando. He’s here to talk about LTV, Lifetime Value, and CAC, Customer Acquisition Cost. That fine relationship between them, he has a catchphrase that I’m going to drill him about, which he says, “LTV is like a river…” I’d like to know about that. Bits about Paul, he has led startup accelerators on three continents. He is an adjunct professor of entrepreneurship at the University of Southern California and runs USC’s on-campus incubator for businesses founded by students, alumni, and faculty.

He advises on building internal incubator programs. He has degrees from Cornell and Columbia and was a winner of the TechCrunch Disrupt Hackathon. He studies systems essentially. He’s here to talk about his book called Growth Units: Learn to Calculate Customer Acquisition Cost, Lifetime Value, and Why Businesses Behave the Way They Do. Interesting book. I started to read it. Welcome, Paul, to 2X eCommerce podcast.

Thanks, Kunle. Great to be here.

Could you do us the honor of introducing yourself and a bit about your book?

The piece I would add to that nice intro is that I learned some of these lessons the hard way. I had a startup on my own years ago, and then I’ve also worked with hundreds of startups in these various startup accelerators that I’ve run. I’ve learned these lessons the hard way. What I mean by that is, back in my old startup, I would look at conversion funnels, trying to understand the data that we had coming in, trying to maximize certain effects.

A couple of things I’ll mention related to that and I hope your readers will appreciate it. I like digging into the numbers a bit. I don’t like to look at the average overall. I also like to try to make sure I understand the human perspective. The quick anecdote I will give you is, in my old startup, we had this signup flow that included having to verify your phone number. We were looking at the data and how people would drop off when they’re going through that process. We saw a lot of drop off when people were verifying their phone numbers. We thought, “This is a design issue.”

We need to make it more obvious what to do. We did some edits but didn’t make any difference. At one point, we had the extreme idea, the solution of having this huge arrow that was pointing to the instructions of what they had to do. It didn’t change much. I went and I looked in person. I watched people sign up in person and I interviewed them during the process. I saw they would stop right there, at that verify your phone number part.

I spoke to the first person, “Why did you stop?” He said, “I forgot my phone today.” I’m like, “No problem.” The next person, exact same thing happened. I asked them, “Why aren’t you continuing?” They said, “I forgot my phone.” That’s when I realized all the data that I was looking at before was of no use. The reason that they were stopping was they didn’t trust us. They thought, “I’m going to start spamming you with text messages or your calls,” or something. I encourage everybody who’s running their own business to match those two pieces. Look at data but there’s sometimes when you have to go out and see somebody in person and what they’re doing.

Screen recording is an incredible technology. We had another lady who came in and she was talking about usability testing as a number one hack for conversion rate optimization. People are telling you why they’re taking certain actions and you’re using a focus group to get insights into the usability of your app or website.

We’re here to talk about LTV and CAC. We start with the fundamentals. Most startup eCommerce businesses will be CAC-sensitive, initially. Till they get that context of LTV, they’d be still cautious about acquiring customers. Do you want to break down what CAC is first, give us some context on useful ways to view CAC, and how CAC can be a useful metric?

You have to try to be honest with yourself. Choose what seems to make the most sense for the business. Click to Tweet

CAC or Customer Acquisition Cost, in the book, I present the unhelpful way of calculating it, and then a more hopeful way. What you will often hear people do is say, “What’s my Customer Acquisition Cost?” It is everything that I spent on customer acquisition last month divided by all the customers that signed up in that same period of time.

I try to avoid that calculation for a couple of reasons. One is it’s top-level. You’re getting this average overall of everything you spent and everybody who came in. You lose a lot of that specificity. The second reason, of course, is you don’t necessarily know what you spent in that previous month and the customers that signed up then. You don’t know if those two are matched. You might have acquired customers from activities that you did a few months earlier than that.

I’d like to try to bring it down to a per-customer basis. The calculation that I use in the book is the cost of bringing somebody in the door, I say in the door because that could be in the door of a retail shop or the door of an online asset, your website, your app. The cost of bringing somebody in the door is divided by the conversion rate. Once they’re there, what percent sign up, or do they become a paid customer?

If you want to get even better with CAC, you can start to segment it out. You have not just one CAC, you probably have many based on the customer segments, based on the channel in which you are reaching those customers. The easy way to know that somebody hasn’t delved into these questions quite that much yet is they have a single number. They can say, “Our CAC is $20.” Rather than saying, “For this segment, it’s $10. For this segment, it’s $50.” “This channel was doing well. We were acquiring customers at $1, but now it’s been going up. It’s closer to $5.” Once you start digging into these metrics, you’re going to uncover a lot of value for your businesses.

You talked about the cost per bringing people to convert divided by the conversion rates. How did you get with that cost per customer? What metrics did you use to get the top?

You do have to track this. For example, if you’re doing a paid ad campaign, this might be a little more straightforward because you can get that readout. In other words, this campaign for this duration of time led to this number of customers. For example, if it’s a paid ad campaign, maybe you’re using your cost-per-click and that drives somebody to your website, that cost per click was $2. Of those people, I see that 10% signed up or they become a customer. I’m taking $2 divided by 10%, it’s giving me $20.

This changes over time. You’ll have well-performing campaigns that stopped work, maybe because you ran out of people to market to and you’re now showing this to your less-than-ideal customers. Or the platform that you’re using changes the algorithm and that has an impact as well. That’s the way I would look at it to start.

This is a challenge, given the death of third-party cookies. The App Tracking Transparency, ATT, has reduced the ability of operators to whittle down their numbers, particularly on Facebook and other non-Google advertising platforms. We’re pushing in the dark. The one thing that clever marketers are doing is they’re funneling traffic to specific properties on their site. They could have a page dedicated to only Facebook traffic, and then they could track that down.

It’s becoming more challenging. It is possible to still get the data back but it’s not a mathematical challenge, so to speak, and a programmatic challenge. We’ve got some CAC out of the way. We understand that the measurement of CAC should be calculated by segments and challenge. What about Lifetime Value? How would you define LTV? We’ll do that for starters and then move to the relationship.

People calculate LTV in different ways. It has a few components. It has the price of the item, it has the costs directly associated with that item, and then it also has a metric around repeat purchases. I keep those three parts distinct. For example, a common thing people will do is they will let the subtract the cost out from price and they’ll get a contribution margin and they’ll use that one number, but you’re losing information there. If you don’t separate your price and costs, you might not know, “There’s an opportunity here for me to increase the price,” or, “Maybe I have some leeway here to reduce costs.” You’re going to lose that information if you start combining things.

On the repeat purchase side, there are two. You’re interested in not only the number of repeat purchases that people seem to do but also in the timing of them. Once you work that calculation altogether, that gives you information on what the complete value of this new customer is. However, it takes a while to discover that. The reality is while you might know your CAC upfront because that’s what you paid to get that one person in, it takes a while for LTV to emerge. In theory, it can always be changing.

For example, you were talking about Facebook before, if you look at the evolution of that company, started off in the beginning with no revenue model, then they started adding ads which became the majority of what they did. The value of the user on Facebook has moved up over the years. They break it out by region. They had five regions so they report on it in their annual report. In some regions, it’s only $5 per quarter of margin that’s produced by your views of ads or clicks on ads.

In the US annually, it’s over $100. If you go back a few years, it might have been maybe half of that amount. They’ve managed to keep moving those rates up by either serving up ads more appropriately. At one point, you’re increasing the number of ads people were exposed to, increasing the amount of time people were spending on the app or website. There are a number of things you can do. These numbers don’t have to stay the same over time.

Generally, at the core of these numbers, they’ve improved their product, which results in people spending more time on their site. They’re able to monetize based on time and on that time spent on-site with more inventory options, they’ve expanded their inventory. In the context of a direct-to-consumer eCommerce business, which is what the show is all about, operators should be encouraged further down the line to continue improving their offering. Better still, adding to their offering habit-forming products that lend themselves well to repeat purchases to maximize this LTV and increase it over time. That talks about the timing factor, which is important. With LTV, you talked about the fact that LTV is a river. Do you want to speak to that?

Similar to the CAC side, if you hear someone says, “Our LTV is $100,” if it’s a single number, that also is a sign that you haven’t dug deeply into what’s going on in your business yet. By that, I mean a couple of things. First of all, similar to the CAC side, you can segment out your customer type and say, “This customer type is $100. This other one is $1,000. This other one is $10,000.” You could also do that by a channel that you reach them by or even a time-based cohort, the ones that signed up in January. The product wasn’t that great yet and a lot of them left. The ones that signed up in July, we had made all these improvements, we have retained them in which LTVs higher.

When it comes to that river, rather than giving a static number of $100, I like to model it out and show. For example, on a monthly basis, what are the inflows and outflows? In the Growth Units book, I modeled this out both in spreadsheets and graphically. I show ways that a business might have an LTV that looks attractive only to model it out and then discover, we have to be able to eat the costs of customer acquisition. Or provide the value back to that customer for months until we start to see contribution margin from those customers.

You might want to play it a little safer or your market is a little more niched. It's not the entire world, it's something smaller. Click to Tweet

If you model it out and show the price per unit sold, the cost of providing that value, how many purchases in a month carry that forward based on what you see people do, you’ll get a better understanding of, “What is my payback period?” “That cost me $50 to acquire a customer. How soon until I get that back?” “Are there different payback periods for different customer segments? What is the value of someone who is an unpaid free user in a freemium model? Can I associate a value to them? I have this expectation that a certain percent upgrade over time.”

You model that out and it gives you a fuller picture of what’s going on in your business. If you don’t, then you get in this situation where your growth can be constricted because you don’t realize that you have months and months until you can pay off CAC or months until you see any positive contribution margin coming in.

In a direct-to-consumer eCommerce situation in which you have a portfolio of products, you’re calculating your LTV by segments, by products perhaps. If you want to report a metric to your product sourcing team or your product development team to inform what next they will be working on. What retention metrics should you present to them so they make the right decisions?

That’s a challenging question because early on, you don’t have that full picture yet. I’d be looking at what some of those leading indicators would be of future behavior. For example, if we’re talking about a SaaS business, we might look at a daily active user metric or even specific to the user. How often do they go and log in?

Leaving the metric being, if they are using it actively throughout the month, that’s a sign that they’re likely to stay for another month. It depends. In this Growth Units book, I said a number of times that it depends on your situation. Otherwise, there are certain businesses where it is a single sale. Or the gap between sales is measured in years, not in months or days.

You might say, “If that’s the case, I might have to make everything back in that first sale.” It depends. I like the question because that is the kind of discussion you should be having internally with your team. “Based on our business model, what should we be trying to move the needle on? What part of this conversion funnel? How important is improving retention to us?”

I would encourage anybody if you modeled that out, you could do a sensitivity analysis and you can say, “If we improve retention 5%, what does that affect?” “If we increase the price by 5%, what does that affect?” All these things are connected. If you increase the price, you might lower retention? Maybe, maybe not. You have to experiment, but you start by asking these questions that let you at least try something new. Measure it and then say, “That worked. That didn’t work. Let’s try the next thing.”

Middle market eCommerce businesses do not tend to have resources such as a data scientist to crunch these numbers and model things out. Are there any turnkey methodologies available, plug and play, or even apps you recommend they can quite easily plug in their Shopify stores or the dashboards to help them get a better view on CAC, on LTV, on these metrics that support a retention strategy?

I keep it simple there. I default to the most basic things of using a spreadsheet to do this. There are certainly a lot of tools, I don’t even think I can push one or the other. Shopify does have some things like this, or even if you’re doing a paid ad campaign on whatever platform, it is giving you a lot of intelligence on what was your cost-per-click, your click-through rate, or per campaign per time.

When I wrote about it in the book, I didn’t mention any specific tools, knowing that these things change over time. One will become popular and then will be replaced by another one. If you’re going to do this, from the beginning, I encourage people to model it out the old-fashioned way in a spreadsheet. That will give you that basic understanding, and then you can say, “At a certain point, I don’t want to be plugging numbers into this anymore.” I wanted to offload that task to some other tool and then based on your industry or your size, discover what that tool is that you enjoy working with. For me, I ended up getting that value by doing it in an old-style spreadsheet and visualizing it in a graph.

What about CAC to LTV ratios? We have talked about Customer Acquisition Cost. We’ve talked about Lifetime Value. Why is this ratio so important? Do you mind breaking it down?

This is a ratio that you’ll often hear people talk about, LTV to CAC ratio. You’ll often hear a rule of thumb, which is 3 to 1 or 4 to 1. For every $3 of LTV coming in, you could spend up to $1 or something like that. I tend to believe that might be pushing it a little too close. Maybe you want to go 5 to 1 or more. People talk about a ratio like this because of a couple of things. One, LTV does not capture everything. It is per unit or per customer value that the business generates. There are all these other costs that aren’t put in there, those fixed costs of salaries, rent, all those other things that a business needs to pay for a month to month.

The other thing that’s not captured in a ratio is timing. I might say, “I’ve got this great LTV to CAC ratio, it’s your 5 to 1, it’s 8 to 1.” I don’t get that $8 until two years went by. In which case, I’m already out of business or my growth is constricted and I can’t invest back in acquiring more customers. That’s the other reason I keep going back to this LTV is a river, the series of flows idea. These are rules of thumb. These are not laws. You should break these rules of thumb whenever you want, whenever it works for you.

The example I would give is back when Amazon was new in the mid-1990s and it was only booked, so it was a much simpler company. The founder, Jeff Bezos, said, “Our LTV at this early stage seems to be around $25. Therefore, you can spend up to that point because we are after market share. We can’t lose money on every customer. If we’re breaking even, I’m okay with that because I want to grow our part of that market or market share.”

If you have that market share approach based on your business type and where you are, you might want an LTV to CAC ratio that is on par, 1 to 1. If instead you have a small business and you’re entirely bootstrapped, it can be a great business. I love businesses like that. That can be great earnings for the founders and the team. You might want to play it a little safer or your market is a little more niched. It’s not the entire world, it’s something smaller. We have examples of startups that raise a ton of capital and they flip this around in the other direction. In other words, their LTV to CAC ratio might be $1 to $2. They’re spending more on acquisition than they’re getting back in return.

You can only do this. It’s dangerous. Companies do it, especially when they raise a lot of money or when their investors might be pushing them for more aggressive growth. It’s not sustainable forever. Eventually, you’ll run out of cash. There are examples of companies doing that. It skews the market for paid ads for everybody else. It skews the way you think about things. It’s like, “I must be doing something wrong.” They’re spending hundreds of millions of dollars on customer acquisition, “Maybe I’m not aggressive enough. I must be thinking about this wrong.”

It’s not always rosy on the top. What you see on the outside, you don’t know what’s going on inside. I want to go back to LTV. For the entrepreneurs I’ve spoken to, it varies how you calculate LTV. I’ve worked with an online retailer that sells floor and wall tiles for bathrooms, kitchens, and even living spaces. It is different from an electronic seller or a seller of subscription raises.

Is there any yardstick, time caught off? With LTV, should you be calculating it on a twelve-month basis because the financial year is twelve months? Should you calculate the LTV on a 24-month period because it’s probably better when you’re valuing businesses? For instance, for an acquisition of a business, you’re looking at the trading 24 months most of the time. Is it set in stone? Are there any standards for LTV? Would it be on a case-by-case basis?

It’s case by case. I haven’t seen a real standard for this when large public companies report on it. I’ve seen the reporting done in so many different ways that I tend to think they’re choosing whichever way is the most optimistic for them personally. At the end of the day, you have to try to be honest with yourself. I would choose what seems to make the most sense for the business that you have.

Look at the data, but also go out and see somebody in person and what they’re doing. Click to Tweet

You mentioned the case of the tile manufacturer. I could look at that in a couple of ways. If the tile manufacturer was selling to general contractors who are always going out and doing work and they’re using tiles every single day and working in people’s houses or buildings. I might have a long-running relationship with that customer. They buy in bulk from me. They’re always putting in a new order, all different types. I might look at that as being a much more long-term customer relationship. I’m willing to invest in that because I know they’re going to stay with me for years. I give them an account person who they can call at any moment and get things sorted out.

If instead I am selling tiles to an individual consumer and they’re using it for a small project in their garden and it’s a one-off and I’m not going to see them again, I might think a little differently about that. If it’s on the individual consumer side, maybe in this tile example, I can’t expect that there’s a repeat customer. I want to get my payback immediately. I can’t be spending more than that contribution back from that one-time sale.

On that general contractor, I might be able to invest more in customer acquisition and say, “I know I’m going to get this back over 6 months, 12 months, or whatever it is.” It’s worth me deferring that margin until later on. I always go back to figuring out what is important for your business and how the business works that will guide you in these questions. Otherwise, if I give a single answer, it’s a single answer but it’s not the right answer for anyone.

That makes a ton of sense. We’ll wrap up this convo. The only thing I wanted to talk about is churn. Would you measure churn on a monthly basis? Would you measure churn within the time horizon you measure LTV?

It depends. I’ll give a couple of extreme examples, mobile operators, postpaid. If you have your typical phone subscription, they can measure churn down to the 10th or a 100th of a percentage point because they’ve got millions of customers. They have years and years of service history. How often does somebody change their mobile provider? It’s not that often. In general, postpaid churn is pretty low for people who subscribe to mobile phone services. Typically, people stay for years and years.

On the other hand, for something like a mobile game, if you download a game in the App Store, you see incredibly high churn on day one. The day one churn can be 80%, 90%, or more. On day seven, you’re almost at 100% churn until the point at which you get to the people who love that game and then they stay for a long time.

There are different models of churn. I also mentioned this in the Growth Units book. There are some that are relatively constant over time. There are some that go in a huge drop-off. There are some that drop off when the customer has to make another decision. It’s an annual sign-up again for another year. It matters based on the business you have. If you have a SaaS business where you’re building monthly, you’re probably looking at monthly churn.

A churn can mean a couple of different things. It’s a measure of how many people leave every period. You can also measure churn in other ways, a revenue basis or lifetime value basis. As I mentioned in the book, negative churn is something that well-performing SaaS businesses have. A negative churn does not mean that one customer is like, “How can it be negative? They turn into two people and then I have two customers?” No.

I have 100 people at the start of the period and the next period, I only have 90 left. I had 10% churn on customers. Of those 90, they’re each paying me 20% more on average. I’m making more money. Mathematically, it’s negative. I have fewer people but they’re each paying me more. I would look at it based on the kind of business that you have.

I hate to not give a single answer or a simple answer. When I told people that I was writing about this topic of unit economics, lifetime value, customer acquisition cost, there were some people who thought, “How could that possibly be something that we need to focus that much attention on?” If you are a business owner or if you’re looking at this because you’re analyzing other companies or you’re trying to grow your own brand. You’ll discover once you start to dig in that if you do get a little more familiarity that lets you optimize certain things, that lets you try to improve certain things, and then you come out with this richer view of how your business works, then you’ve got something that you can improve on.

Paul, I could go on and on. I learned a ton from this conversation. Your book is called Growth Units: Learn to Calculate Customer Acquisition Cost, Lifetime Value, and Why Businesses Behave the Way They Do. It’s available on Amazon on Kindle and paperback. It’s Paul Orlando. It’s a pleasure having you on the 2X eCommerce Podcast.

Thanks, Kunle. It’s great speaking with you.

Cheers.

About the host:

Kunle Campbell

An ecommerce advisor to ambitious, agile online retailers and funded ecommerce startups seeking exponentially sales growth through scalable customer acquisition, retention, conversion optimisation, product/market fit optimisation and customer referrals.

Learn from eCommerce Entrepreneurs & Marketing Experts


Get Free Email Updates by Signing Up Below:

Podcasts you might like